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uh good afternoon good morning good

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evening

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everybody uh this is uh our last um uh

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webinar for today uh today we're gonna

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be talking about planetary conditions

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for life we have a panel here the rest

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of the panel will be joining us in a

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short while francis will join us

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but we can kick off uh the intention is

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to talk through um a number of important

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questions that the panel have uh have

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selected is masso selected together the

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questions you can see in the bottom

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right hand corner of your window there

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while the discussion is happening

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amongst the panel we encourage

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participants to um join in the

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conversation on the open chat window to

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the left of your screen

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uh you can type into there and you'll

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see the chat happening there my

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colleague dave lomas david lomas will be

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copying and pasting uh uh interesting

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and important points from that

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uh from that uh discussion into the live

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notes

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our intention is to run the conversation

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for uh for about half an hour across the

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questions and then open the floor and

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open the mics to uh to all participants

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so we can engage everybody in the same

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conversation

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so while the presenters are talking if

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you can keep your microphones closed

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with star sticks that would be really

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useful so we can all hear each other so

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uh thank you very much for coming uh i'd

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like to head across to michael new first

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to give us a little bit of context if

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that's good thank you

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so good afternoon evening morning um

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i'm michael new those who don't know me

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i'm the astrobiology discipline

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scientist at nasa headquarters

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and nasa is

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supporting this activity we'd like

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the community to really take an

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ownership role in it so we're probably

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not going to be very involved in the

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sense you're probably not going to hear

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me say a lot more than this

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um planetary kitchens for life is one of

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the areas that we one of the ways we

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think about one of the areas of

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astrobiology

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basically it can be summarized very

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easily as how do you make planets and

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once you have planets what makes them

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habitable

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and we can argue a lot about what

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habitable means

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um that is what we're going to talk

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about today uh we start talking about

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today and then hopefully everybody will

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continue talking about it on the online

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discussion forum that we're setting up

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um the participating in the on this

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discussion and in the online discussions

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later on is important for two reasons

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first we're capturing everything you

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write everything you say everything you

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post

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and so all that information is going to

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indirectly affect the thinking of the

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people who are actually writing gonna

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write the road map

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and secondly and perhaps more more

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direct certainly more directly and

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possibly

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more importantly

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we're going to be choosing people to

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write the road map

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based on people who have active

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and interesting things who are active

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and have interesting things to say uh

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both in this panel and later on

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in in the online discussion so i really

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do encourage you to uh participate both

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in the chat room here um

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raise your hand you have a function a

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button on the upper left corner of your

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screen that lets you draw on the webex

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that lets you raise your hand and we'll

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call on you and then when we decamp from

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this

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interactive presentation mode we go on

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to the discussion forum um we i

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encourage you to start taking up

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questions writing answers

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commenting

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um because that's how we're gonna move

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uh forward towards a final roadmap that

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will define the direction of

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astrobiology research for the next

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decade

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so this is probably all you're going to

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hear from me today um

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i'm really interested to hear everyone

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else has to say so i'm just going to sit

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here and

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you do it so well thank you thank you

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very much michael and thank you for

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pointing out how people can chat through

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the chat window and raising hands with

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the little icon at the top of the screen

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so we'll kick off our conversation uh i

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kick off uh

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without panel these questions were

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raised by the panel as being important

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topics for for nasa to consider so what

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i'm going to ask them to do is to tell

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us why you think these are important

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questions let's start with the first

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question the fact is that's only the

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amount of water delivered to planets in

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a star's habitable zone um stein can i

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turn to you first to give us your

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thoughts on that

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okay um

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so there's an old question within the

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solar system of

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uh how exactly water got delivered to

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the earth uh there are these isotopic

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water on the surface of the earth at

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least and

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there's the question of what happened to

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the lunar impact and

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the water reservoir and the mantle

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and i think the bottom line is we don't

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know within a factor of 10

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uh what the true

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water content of the earth is or the

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history of its delivery

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and clearly the water content is

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critical at least for life as we know it

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so it seems reasonable we should

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try to understand in detail

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water delivery in general for the solar

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system in particular but then also

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we now understand there's a huge

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diversity of planetary systems

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we need to understand

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the variability in water delivery in

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different contexts and with different

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um

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scenarios of plant formation for

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different classes of planetary systems

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and we've done a little bit of work on

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that sean and i in fact wrote a couple

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of papers together and there's several

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other papers that have been done last

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few years on on both the astro dynamical

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problem of transporting volatiles within

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a hot disk

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and

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a little bit on the um

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geology and and the

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details of delivering water through

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impact there's a huge amount of work to

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be done

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and

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i think even astronomy when you don't

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understand things within orders of

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magnitude

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and we know they're critical things and

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it's a pretty good

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starting point to really get into some

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details and try to understand this

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uh properly and really try to nail this

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question down and then of course we have

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to go and get some data and test our

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ideas

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okay i think i'm unmuted now

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um yeah i agree this is uh it's an

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interesting question and one thing

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uh that i find particularly interesting

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is

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we don't know that well

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where earth's water came from so there

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have been a variety of models of where

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earth's water came from like stein

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mentioned and uh

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the the source of earth's water has even

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changed over the last 10 20 years you

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know the the presumed source

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and when we try to extrapolate this to

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extrasolar planets because that's kind

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of where the next big step is we want to

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think about life around

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other planets uh i don't think we even

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have a good sense of which step in the

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in the process

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is the one that would control how much

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water a planet like earth

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received for example uh does it depend

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more on the composition of the disk

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from which the planets form for example

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the it's been argued that the carbon to

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oxygen ratio within the disc is a key

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factor

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to determine whether uh how much water

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you actually end up with due to various

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chemical reactions within the disk or is

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it the viscous evolution of the disk

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some people have argued that in many

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discs if you have a very cold passive

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disc it's possible that water would

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condense in as close as one a year for a

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solar like a sun-like star and then you

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could end up having an earth be a water

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world type planet typically

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uh then there's there's various other

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processes at play such as short-lived

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radionuclides which have an interesting

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story in the solar system you know

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there's there's a large amount of heat

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injected

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into the

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solar system at early times by things

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like aluminum 26 that would have dried

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out a lot of planetesimals and is that a

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common process or a rare one and how

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important is it and then finally there's

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the kind of the the real formation of

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the earth-like planets uh you know giant

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collisions are involved that presumably

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uh release a lot of water uh you know is

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is is it that the earth tried to form

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with a hundred times more water than we

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have now and only one percent remained

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or did we only lose a factor of two in

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water that we don't really know the

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answer to those type of questions so

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even just kind of narrowing down which

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chain along there uh

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governed you know is the most important

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factor in determining the water content

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uh would be an interesting starting

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that's that's my thoughts for now

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thank you

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um

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the uh francis will probably come back

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and give us his thoughts on this in a

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short while

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um but um

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before we move on to our next question

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just just to come back to stein and to

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sean uh this may sound like a very naive

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question but but what what's stopping

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you uh making this progress already why

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why is this important

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uh to be done why have you not made

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progress with this so far why should

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nasa be putting their money into this

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okay i'll start again um

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pure answer is um time money and people

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each of these separate problems is a

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somewhere between a difficult problem

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and a near intractable problem uh

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they're computationally hard in case of

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the modeling

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geochemistry is

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complex

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and so this chemistry is worse because

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the multi-phase chemistry and and in

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conditions where we don't always have

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lab data to

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get through reaction rates and

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kinetic equilibria etc

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progress isn't fit and start you you do

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what you can when you can and then you

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hit a barrier and

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you have to pause and wait for the

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technology to catch up or someone to put

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00:10:29,269 --> 00:10:28,079
the work in to figure out the next step

286
00:10:30,870 --> 00:10:29,279
um

287
00:10:33,190 --> 00:10:30,880
and it's not just water i see daniel

288
00:10:35,750 --> 00:10:33,200
just denoted that it's

289
00:10:37,590 --> 00:10:35,760
the whole shawn or peachon

290
00:10:38,550 --> 00:10:37,600
group of elements that you need to worry

291
00:10:41,030 --> 00:10:38,560
about

292
00:10:43,190 --> 00:10:41,040
water is more sort of a tracer it's got

293
00:10:45,030 --> 00:10:43,200
a nice

294
00:10:47,190 --> 00:10:45,040
moderate

295
00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:47,200
uh heat of a temperature which is the

296
00:10:49,829 --> 00:10:49,120
vaporizer or the critical triple point

297
00:10:52,949 --> 00:10:49,839
so

298
00:10:55,269 --> 00:10:52,959
are

299
00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:55,279
uh it's not that it's the only unique uh

300
00:10:58,230 --> 00:10:56,399
uh

301
00:11:00,150 --> 00:10:58,240
chemical for for life

302
00:11:02,230 --> 00:11:00,160
uh it's more than the tracker for it but

303
00:11:07,269 --> 00:11:02,240
um

304
00:11:08,790 --> 00:11:07,279
personally i find that that uh

305
00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:08,800
it's literally

306
00:11:13,350 --> 00:11:10,320
we need to be able to have more people

307
00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:13,360
working on it we need to have

308
00:11:16,870 --> 00:11:15,360
groups of overlapping researchers where

309
00:11:18,710 --> 00:11:16,880
there's continuity in the research where

310
00:11:20,389 --> 00:11:18,720
it doesn't stop all the time

311
00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:20,399
and it just

312
00:11:26,069 --> 00:11:21,600
it

313
00:11:27,750 --> 00:11:26,079
resources are money and people

314
00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:27,760
and we're short on that we're critically

315
00:11:31,590 --> 00:11:29,519
short in all these areas of people with

316
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:31,600
an exterior critical skills and the and

317
00:11:36,310 --> 00:11:32,800
the amount of money to pay to people

318
00:11:40,550 --> 00:11:38,870
i would add one small uh detail

319
00:11:42,470 --> 00:11:40,560
which is that uh

320
00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:42,480
it's a it's a very interdisciplinary

321
00:11:46,470 --> 00:11:43,920
question which why is why it's so

322
00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:46,480
relevant to astrobiology and so for

323
00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:48,000
example when we think just about water

324
00:11:51,509 --> 00:11:49,120
on earth

325
00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:51,519
uh even to even address that problem you

326
00:11:55,590 --> 00:11:53,760
have to be up to date in several

327
00:11:57,670 --> 00:11:55,600
different fields so you don't just need

328
00:11:59,670 --> 00:11:57,680
kind of a background in geology and

329
00:12:01,590 --> 00:11:59,680
astronomy and dynamics and such you

330
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:01,600
actually need to be up to date because

331
00:12:05,670 --> 00:12:03,120
for example there was a new paper last

332
00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:05,680
year revising earth's bulk water content

333
00:12:08,790 --> 00:12:07,120
changing it by about a factor of three

334
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:08,800
from what we saw before

335
00:12:11,350 --> 00:12:10,480
there's new dynamical models all the

336
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:11,360
time

337
00:12:14,949 --> 00:12:13,200
there's new all sorts of new discoveries

338
00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:14,959
and exoplanets that influence how we

339
00:12:19,269 --> 00:12:16,639
think they formed and even how we think

340
00:12:21,350 --> 00:12:19,279
the solar system forms so to really put

341
00:12:22,629 --> 00:12:21,360
the pieces together you don't just need

342
00:12:23,910 --> 00:12:22,639
people who have kind of a background in

343
00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:23,920
one field who are now doing another

344
00:12:27,430 --> 00:12:25,440
field you need people who are at the

345
00:12:29,030 --> 00:12:27,440
forefront of each different field kind

346
00:12:31,509 --> 00:12:29,040
of working together

347
00:12:36,389 --> 00:12:31,519
which is i think the the advantage of

348
00:12:39,509 --> 00:12:37,350
and

349
00:12:43,030 --> 00:12:39,519
just to chime in on this

350
00:12:45,990 --> 00:12:43,040
one of the problems you run into is

351
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:46,000
even if you get going on this

352
00:12:49,910 --> 00:12:48,160
the research is quantized you get maybe

353
00:12:51,990 --> 00:12:49,920
a three-year grant

354
00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:52,000
and then it's currently essentially a

355
00:12:54,710 --> 00:12:53,040
lottery whether you're going to get a

356
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:54,720
renewal on the ground or not

357
00:12:59,670 --> 00:12:56,160
and that makes it really difficult to

358
00:13:01,430 --> 00:12:59,680
keep a continuous research theme going

359
00:13:02,790 --> 00:13:01,440
this is not specific to this problem

360
00:13:04,550 --> 00:13:02,800
this is the general

361
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:04,560
i think nasa is perfectly well aware of

362
00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:09,910
it makes it harder to maintain progress

363
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:18,470
try again

364
00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:19,590
well thank you thank you for the

365
00:13:22,710 --> 00:13:21,760
response there does that

366
00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:22,720
does that

367
00:13:28,069 --> 00:13:24,880
apply also to our second question on our

368
00:13:28,949 --> 00:13:28,079
list here about organic molecules

369
00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:28,959
um

370
00:13:33,829 --> 00:13:32,000
is uh could you again explain to us uh

371
00:13:36,310 --> 00:13:33,839
something as to why you think this

372
00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:36,320
question is is important for nasa to

373
00:13:42,710 --> 00:13:40,550
you want to go first

374
00:13:45,509 --> 00:13:42,720
um sure well this this particular

375
00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:45,519
question about the organic molecules

376
00:13:50,310 --> 00:13:48,880
and such is really not my specialty uh

377
00:13:53,670 --> 00:13:50,320
but

378
00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:53,680
i mean i think the the general idea of

379
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:55,680
of understanding

380
00:14:00,949 --> 00:13:57,279
where these molecules that that are key

381
00:14:02,470 --> 00:14:00,959
for life on earth come from how you can

382
00:14:04,150 --> 00:14:02,480
you know how they're preserved and what

383
00:14:05,990 --> 00:14:04,160
you really need is is really important

384
00:14:08,230 --> 00:14:06,000
and also multi-disciplinary because it

385
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:08,240
should connect naturally uh between kind

386
00:14:12,310 --> 00:14:10,800
of planetary science and geology

387
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:12,320
and even astrophysics when you think of

388
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:14,480
the abundances of different elements in

389
00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:16,000
the interstellar medium or in clouds

390
00:14:23,750 --> 00:14:20,710
so

391
00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:23,760
question i don't know too much about the

392
00:14:28,829 --> 00:14:25,600
details of it personally but uh it's

393
00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:30,710
so um

394
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:33,120
again i'm an astronomer not a not a

395
00:14:36,629 --> 00:14:34,880
biologist or a uh

396
00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:36,639
chemist

397
00:14:39,829 --> 00:14:38,240
we know in the interstellar media we get

398
00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:39,839
part of the way there at least

399
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:41,600
we get

400
00:14:46,790 --> 00:14:43,760
moderately complex molecules forming in

401
00:14:49,910 --> 00:14:46,800
the gas phase and on solid surfaces

402
00:14:51,829 --> 00:14:49,920
on planetary in the solar nebula

403
00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:51,839
and these are clearly delivered to the

404
00:14:55,590 --> 00:14:54,480
earth and other planets in general so we

405
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:55,600
start off

406
00:15:01,350 --> 00:14:58,320
halfway there there are moderately

407
00:15:02,790 --> 00:15:01,360
complex organic compounds there are

408
00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:02,800
compounds we know are biologically

409
00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:03,920
interesting

410
00:15:12,470 --> 00:15:09,910
amino acids and sugars

411
00:15:14,870 --> 00:15:12,480
we see directly in space

412
00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:19,829
what we don't know is the big step from

413
00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:23,040
how we get to through prebiotic or

414
00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:25,120
protobiotic conditions

415
00:15:28,790 --> 00:15:26,880
and there are some really interesting

416
00:15:30,949 --> 00:15:28,800
ideas out there

417
00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:30,959
uh the classic title pool idea

418
00:15:37,629 --> 00:15:33,600
hydrothermal van

419
00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:41,110
plays um there are a number of places

420
00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:42,480
where things could be happening maybe

421
00:15:45,750 --> 00:15:44,000
you need all of them maybe you need some

422
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:45,760
of them maybe just one of them will do

423
00:15:48,150 --> 00:15:47,040
or maybe you're completely on the wrong

424
00:15:51,350 --> 00:15:48,160
track and there's something else going

425
00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:51,360
on but something somewhere

426
00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:52,880
gave us conditions where the

427
00:15:56,710 --> 00:15:55,120
concentration and the thermodynamic

428
00:15:59,030 --> 00:15:56,720
conditions existed

429
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:59,040
or prebiotic molecules become probiotics

430
00:16:01,509 --> 00:16:00,720
become biotic

431
00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:01,519
and

432
00:16:06,389 --> 00:16:04,800
raw catalysis presumably you're more or

433
00:16:08,629 --> 00:16:06,399
less safe unless you're contingently

434
00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:08,639
sterilized by the ionized impact

435
00:16:11,749 --> 00:16:10,560
or volcano opening up right underneath

436
00:16:13,749 --> 00:16:11,759
the tidal pool

437
00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:13,759
but um

438
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:15,600
and then you do it again

439
00:16:19,829 --> 00:16:17,440
but there's no reason we can't

440
00:16:22,629 --> 00:16:19,839
understand this this is not a

441
00:16:24,550 --> 00:16:22,639
inconceivably difficult problem

442
00:16:25,749 --> 00:16:24,560
uh and in fact one of the things i've

443
00:16:27,509 --> 00:16:25,759
been most impressed with in the last

444
00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:27,519
decade with the biology is how how

445
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:30,160
strongly we've converged from both ends

446
00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:32,160
and understanding this problem

447
00:16:38,870 --> 00:16:35,360
and it seems to me that this is a

448
00:16:40,790 --> 00:16:38,880
very large question in science in fact

449
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:40,800
in a lot of surveys this is one of the

450
00:16:45,189 --> 00:16:42,639
two big questions

451
00:16:46,470 --> 00:16:45,199
that we must understand the the origin

452
00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:46,480
of life question where you how you

453
00:16:50,949 --> 00:16:48,480
transit from a

454
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:50,959
prebiotic biotic and

455
00:16:54,710 --> 00:16:53,519
we seem to be praying to answer it

456
00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:54,720
unless we're missing something really

457
00:16:58,870 --> 00:16:57,120
subtle i think we are very close to

458
00:17:00,069 --> 00:16:58,880
really understanding step by step what's

459
00:17:01,670 --> 00:17:00,079
going on

460
00:17:03,430 --> 00:17:01,680
uh even possibly down to the point of

461
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:03,440
replicating it and there have been some

462
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:06,160
class plastic lab experiments that have

463
00:17:09,429 --> 00:17:08,480
elucidated some of the steps in this i

464
00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:09,439
really wish for instance we're here to

465
00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:11,919
talk about this um

466
00:17:16,069 --> 00:17:14,079
but um can i

467
00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:16,079
say can i bring david david into the

468
00:17:20,069 --> 00:17:17,520
conversation he's raising his hand here

469
00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:23,429
david yeah um

470
00:17:27,270 --> 00:17:25,750
can you hear me

471
00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:27,280
we can

472
00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:28,559
yes okay

473
00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:30,160
yeah it seems to me that this is the

474
00:17:34,150 --> 00:17:32,480
hardest question of the four i think it

475
00:17:35,909 --> 00:17:34,160
seems to me that this is really origins

476
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:35,919
of life in fact shouldn't that question

477
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:36,960
end

478
00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:38,799
complexification of organics towards

479
00:17:50,150 --> 00:17:48,390
can you hear me

480
00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:50,160
yeah so what

481
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:53,600
can you clarify the distinction

482
00:17:59,029 --> 00:17:55,840
well biogenesis is the origin of life

483
00:18:00,950 --> 00:17:59,039
abiogenesis is the order of

484
00:18:02,630 --> 00:18:00,960
something that's not life

485
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:02,640
so i just thought maybe the a should go

486
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:04,720
away on that last word

487
00:18:12,710 --> 00:18:05,760
but

488
00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:12,720
that um

489
00:18:15,029 --> 00:18:13,520
you know

490
00:18:16,789 --> 00:18:15,039
a lot of our laboratory models can

491
00:18:18,950 --> 00:18:16,799
figure out parts of this puzzle but it

492
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:18,960
seems to me that the key

493
00:18:23,669 --> 00:18:21,360
part of the puzzle is how can we channel

494
00:18:25,190 --> 00:18:23,679
energy into the formation of complexity

495
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:25,200
in terms of function

496
00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:27,760
and so it's this coupling of the energy

497
00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:29,440
that's in the environment towards the

498
00:18:32,950 --> 00:18:31,360
increase in information content of what

499
00:18:35,430 --> 00:18:32,960
it is that you're trying to do that is

500
00:18:36,870 --> 00:18:35,440
the crux of the problem and so i think

501
00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:36,880
whereas many

502
00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:38,160
studies have

503
00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:40,640
shown progress in some of the sub areas

504
00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:43,360
about this challenge of origin of life

505
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:45,120
life is the system where you have the

506
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:47,039
energy coupled to these complex

507
00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:49,360
molecules and processes and

508
00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:51,280
that seems to be a tough one to me and i

509
00:18:54,710 --> 00:18:52,480
don't know that there's been a lot of

510
00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:54,720
work done on that so um

511
00:18:58,470 --> 00:18:56,240
anyway i just thought i'd say that it's

512
00:18:59,669 --> 00:18:58,480
how does the system come about

513
00:19:03,029 --> 00:18:59,679
um

514
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:04,789
so i think a related question and that

515
00:19:09,110 --> 00:19:07,600
takes us down to question four as well

516
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:09,120
is not just

517
00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:10,799
how do you couple the free energy that's

518
00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:13,440
flowing through the system into driving

519
00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:14,640
uh

520
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:16,240
the complexification i guess is the word

521
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:17,520
we're using here

522
00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:19,760
but also how little can you get away

523
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:20,799
with

524
00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:22,080
uh it is

525
00:19:25,750 --> 00:19:24,080
it sort of becomes another goldilocks

526
00:19:27,350 --> 00:19:25,760
problem because if you put too much

527
00:19:27,990 --> 00:19:27,360
energy through the system you vaporize

528
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:28,000
it

529
00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:29,600
that does not seem to be conducive to

530
00:19:32,070 --> 00:19:31,039
biogenesis

531
00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:32,080
um

532
00:19:35,830 --> 00:19:34,000
vaporizing i

533
00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:35,840
could go to ions plasma if you would

534
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:38,080
really huge amount of energy through but

535
00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:40,240
there is presumably some minimum amount

536
00:19:44,789 --> 00:19:42,720
of free energy flow where you just never

537
00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:44,799
get the gradients and the interesting

538
00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:46,640
chemistry going to

539
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:48,880
where you actually get to origin of life

540
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:50,240
and

541
00:19:52,870 --> 00:19:51,440
again this seems to be the sort of

542
00:19:54,549 --> 00:19:52,880
question where we can squeeze down to

543
00:19:57,669 --> 00:19:54,559
the answer and

544
00:20:01,110 --> 00:19:59,669
lower bound of energy flow where you're

545
00:20:02,789 --> 00:20:01,120
just you're just not going to get there

546
00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:02,799
in a finite time

547
00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:04,000
and

548
00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:06,720
is

549
00:20:10,789 --> 00:20:08,720
are you then relying on contingent or

550
00:20:12,789 --> 00:20:10,799
stochastic events or is this really

551
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:12,799
inevitable once you get free life free

552
00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:14,400
energy flowing through

553
00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:15,440
a

554
00:20:18,630 --> 00:20:17,360
motor my old system for long enough is

555
00:20:20,070 --> 00:20:18,640
rich enough of a chemistry are you

556
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:20,080
always going to get life

557
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:22,000
that's that's i think the question we

558
00:20:28,390 --> 00:20:23,440
want to know

559
00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:28,400
or or at least a mechanism

560
00:20:32,149 --> 00:20:30,559
conceivably of course there could be

561
00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:32,159
several different metabolic channels or

562
00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:32,880
or

563
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:37,440
and we may be very strongly biased here

564
00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:38,960
in terms of what we're looking for but

565
00:20:46,630 --> 00:20:44,070
we just point out here that as michael

566
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:46,640
points out uh we're not just necessarily

567
00:20:51,590 --> 00:20:48,960
discussing the origin of life here but

568
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:51,600
how habitable planets are made

569
00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:53,840
uh and how how once formerly inhabitable

570
00:20:57,270 --> 00:20:56,240
so just just to keep that on topic for

571
00:21:00,630 --> 00:20:57,280
the moment

572
00:21:03,350 --> 00:21:00,640
um can we can we sort of have a look

573
00:21:04,310 --> 00:21:03,360
towards um our third question here we'll

574
00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:04,320
probably come backwards and forwards

575
00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:06,080
across these when francis comes back in

576
00:21:10,149 --> 00:21:08,400
to join us but um i just want a big

577
00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:10,159
thing about the uniquely identifying

578
00:21:14,870 --> 00:21:12,320
fossils um

579
00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:14,880
it's um i wonder if sean could you give

580
00:21:17,909 --> 00:21:16,720
us a little bit of background as to why

581
00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:17,919
you think that was an important question

582
00:21:26,549 --> 00:21:24,950
um sorry what

583
00:21:28,630 --> 00:21:26,559
this is another area that i'm afraid i'm

584
00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:28,640
not super specialized in i've i know a

585
00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:30,720
little bit about the the fossil kind of

586
00:21:34,950 --> 00:21:32,480
problem like from the the

587
00:21:38,149 --> 00:21:34,960
reported mars uh fossils in the mars

588
00:21:39,909 --> 00:21:38,159
meteorite but uh again

589
00:21:42,310 --> 00:21:39,919
i mean this is a hugely important

590
00:21:43,669 --> 00:21:42,320
question of whether even

591
00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:43,679
if you have a chunk of life in your hand

592
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:45,760
whether you can identify it or not

593
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:47,200
um

594
00:21:50,549 --> 00:21:49,120
so exactly

595
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:50,559
more details than that i'm gonna have to

596
00:21:55,270 --> 00:21:52,080
pass to someone else

597
00:21:57,669 --> 00:21:55,280
uh given my background

598
00:21:59,110 --> 00:21:57,679
okay thank you stein did you have it or

599
00:22:06,310 --> 00:21:59,120
should i bring in david david's got a

600
00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:07,990
oh do you want david

601
00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:11,120
oh okay well you know i'm on the science

602
00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:13,600
definition team for the mars 2020 rover

603
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:14,880
so i have to be a little careful about

604
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:16,480
what i say here

605
00:22:20,070 --> 00:22:17,679
but um

606
00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:20,080
you know this this is a challenge uh to

607
00:22:24,390 --> 00:22:22,240
really get at this question you need to

608
00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:24,400
figure out how to collect samples and

609
00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:26,080
then quite frankly in the long run get

610
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:27,520
them back to earth

611
00:22:31,669 --> 00:22:29,760
uh and so the real challenge is how do

612
00:22:33,110 --> 00:22:31,679
we intelligently select samples and of

613
00:22:34,149 --> 00:22:33,120
course what do we do with them once we

614
00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:34,159
get back

615
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:36,400
um i think i would take a little issue

616
00:22:39,909 --> 00:22:38,159
with the latter part of that question

617
00:22:42,390 --> 00:22:39,919
it's it's so implying the absence of

618
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:42,400
biologically exclusive chemical

619
00:22:46,470 --> 00:22:44,320
signatures and i would think many would

620
00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:46,480
argue that certainly in terms of organic

621
00:22:49,990 --> 00:22:48,559
chemicals uh there would be bio

622
00:22:51,110 --> 00:22:50,000
signatures that could be quite

623
00:22:53,750 --> 00:22:51,120
definitive

624
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:53,760
so um yeah i think but then of course

625
00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:55,200
there's the question as to whether we

626
00:23:00,310 --> 00:22:56,960
could ever determine them as being

627
00:23:03,029 --> 00:23:00,320
biological using a remote spacecraft and

628
00:23:04,789 --> 00:23:03,039
i think in that case uh there is reason

629
00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:04,799
to be um

630
00:23:10,070 --> 00:23:07,120
skeptical that we could achieve that but

631
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:10,080
i think at least for mars uh a key part

632
00:23:14,470 --> 00:23:12,320
of addressing this is the issue of

633
00:23:15,669 --> 00:23:14,480
sample return i'll try to answer this

634
00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:15,679
question

635
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:16,640
um

636
00:23:35,430 --> 00:23:18,080
a lot of people would argue that that's

637
00:23:38,549 --> 00:23:36,870
thank you about that damn it's got to

638
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:38,559
mute that line for now but you want to

639
00:23:43,990 --> 00:23:41,360
take it over again tim

640
00:23:46,149 --> 00:23:44,000
thank you um so

641
00:23:47,909 --> 00:23:46,159
just coming back then to um stein i

642
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:47,919
think you were about to you're about to

643
00:23:51,110 --> 00:23:49,200
say something before david came in there

644
00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:51,120
were you

645
00:23:54,789 --> 00:23:52,480
yeah i thought sort of

646
00:23:55,909 --> 00:23:54,799
that that was part of my job but um

647
00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:55,919
so i think the answer to that question

648
00:23:59,270 --> 00:23:57,440
is yes

649
00:24:00,549 --> 00:23:59,280
we will we will at some point be able to

650
00:24:02,070 --> 00:24:00,559
uniquely identify fossils and

651
00:24:04,310 --> 00:24:02,080
microorganisms

652
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:04,320
uh whether that'll be on the time scale

653
00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:06,320
that's useful to this roadmap is uh the

654
00:24:11,110 --> 00:24:07,760
hard question

655
00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:12,630
clearly if we can bring rocks back and

656
00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:15,600
see morphological uh signatures of rock

657
00:24:22,710 --> 00:24:18,400
of fossils that are that everybody

658
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:25,029
unfortunately people are very clever in

659
00:24:28,549 --> 00:24:26,159
coming up with alternative

660
00:24:31,510 --> 00:24:28,559
interpretations of

661
00:24:32,549 --> 00:24:31,520
such things as we've already experienced

662
00:24:34,149 --> 00:24:32,559
um

663
00:24:36,789 --> 00:24:34,159
so

664
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:36,799
a unique identifier will probably

665
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:39,360
require cumulative evidence of multiple

666
00:24:43,590 --> 00:24:41,440
lines of evidence

667
00:24:45,990 --> 00:24:43,600
not a a

668
00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:46,000
eureka moment of wow you know here's

669
00:24:49,190 --> 00:24:46,960
here's the

670
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:49,200
the definitive single proof of life on

671
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:50,640
another planet

672
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:52,960
our past life on our planet

673
00:24:58,230 --> 00:24:57,039
um in particular um

674
00:25:00,070 --> 00:24:58,240
between

675
00:25:03,909 --> 00:25:00,080
looking for like biosignatures and

676
00:25:06,149 --> 00:25:03,919
isotope ratios and signature metabolism

677
00:25:08,230 --> 00:25:06,159
and uh morphology

678
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:08,240
we should be thinking about

679
00:25:11,669 --> 00:25:10,240
what else is there

680
00:25:13,590 --> 00:25:11,679
um

681
00:25:16,149 --> 00:25:13,600
is is there a is it something we're

682
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:16,159
overlooking where we can pick up if not

683
00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:18,080
a conclusive unique identifying

684
00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:21,520
signature supporting evidence or

685
00:25:25,029 --> 00:25:23,360
or little things that when they go

686
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:25,039
together with another

687
00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:26,880
strong but not conclusive signature do

688
00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:29,200
they cumulatively add up to a unique

689
00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:30,320
signature

690
00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:32,640
or a convincing enough that everybody

691
00:25:36,070 --> 00:25:34,240
more or less can agree okay we really

692
00:25:37,909 --> 00:25:36,080
got got something here

693
00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:37,919
um

694
00:25:40,630 --> 00:25:39,120
i don't know

695
00:25:42,390 --> 00:25:40,640
i suspect we're going to find out the

696
00:25:43,909 --> 00:25:42,400
hard way by going and trying and failing

697
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:43,919
a few times and then keep doing it again

698
00:25:48,230 --> 00:25:46,080
and again and again

699
00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:48,240
but it's clearly possible and it's

700
00:25:53,110 --> 00:25:49,760
interesting

701
00:25:56,870 --> 00:25:55,430
i'd like to know the answer

702
00:25:59,669 --> 00:25:56,880
thank you stein

703
00:26:01,750 --> 00:25:59,679
we have a hand raised from david

704
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:01,760
david all right

705
00:26:05,830 --> 00:26:04,320
uh a useful concept in this right my

706
00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:05,840
regard might be something called a

707
00:26:09,590 --> 00:26:08,320
potential biosignature as opposed to

708
00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:09,600
what you might call a definitive

709
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:12,000
biosignature and and the value of this

710
00:26:16,230 --> 00:26:14,320
concept of a potential biosignature is

711
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:16,240
that this is going to be an iterative

712
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:18,080
process we first had to go to mars to

713
00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:20,400
establish the extent of water activity

714
00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:22,720
now we're sort of at the level of trying

715
00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:25,200
to make a more complete uh investigation

716
00:26:28,789 --> 00:26:27,200
with respect to what it is required for

717
00:26:30,630 --> 00:26:28,799
habitability and of course as you know

718
00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:30,640
that's more than just water

719
00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:32,000
uh and then the same thing really

720
00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:33,840
applies to bio signatures we need to

721
00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:34,640
know

722
00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:37,760
go to get the best chance for

723
00:26:40,789 --> 00:26:39,600
preservation of bio signatures and the

724
00:26:42,149 --> 00:26:40,799
first things we're going to see that are

725
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:42,159
interesting will be potential this

726
00:26:45,909 --> 00:26:44,240
certainly will not be proven

727
00:26:47,590 --> 00:26:45,919
but then that helps narrow the search

728
00:26:49,990 --> 00:26:47,600
and so how do we set up sort of an

729
00:26:51,510 --> 00:26:50,000
iterative approach to this problem to

730
00:26:54,390 --> 00:26:51,520
break it down into

731
00:26:56,710 --> 00:26:54,400
tractable steps and so this concept of a

732
00:26:58,710 --> 00:26:56,720
potential bio signature just like the

733
00:27:01,510 --> 00:26:58,720
allen hill stuff was before we came down

734
00:27:10,950 --> 00:27:01,520
with a more definitive determination i i

735
00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:13,029
what i'd like to do now is open the

736
00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:16,080
question uh to to the floor really we

737
00:27:19,669 --> 00:27:18,000
have a number of questions here which i

738
00:27:21,830 --> 00:27:19,679
think francis had something to

739
00:27:23,510 --> 00:27:21,840
contribute to as well but then hopefully

740
00:27:26,549 --> 00:27:23,520
he'll join us surely

741
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:26,559
but uh the um the attendees we have 27

742
00:27:29,909 --> 00:27:27,840
attendees here

743
00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:29,919
um what are your opinions on these

744
00:27:34,789 --> 00:27:32,640
questions here why why do you think

745
00:27:37,830 --> 00:27:34,799
these questions may be important for

746
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:37,840
nasa to pursue why should they be on the

747
00:27:43,590 --> 00:27:41,520
astrobiology roadmap

748
00:27:47,350 --> 00:27:43,600
if you can raise your hands

749
00:27:49,669 --> 00:27:47,360
daniel thank you first and thank you

750
00:27:51,269 --> 00:27:49,679
okay so i would like to address the

751
00:27:53,269 --> 00:27:51,279
first question

752
00:27:55,269 --> 00:27:53,279
i hope you can hear me now

753
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:55,279
um i think that's an important question

754
00:27:58,470 --> 00:27:56,240
because

755
00:28:00,389 --> 00:27:58,480
exoplanets have been growing in

756
00:28:02,630 --> 00:28:00,399
importance and they are very likely

757
00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:02,640
going to play an important role in next

758
00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:05,440
decades nasa space missions

759
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:06,960
this question is very important because

760
00:28:10,549 --> 00:28:09,440
it helps answering this question helps

761
00:28:11,669 --> 00:28:10,559
to figure out which are the right

762
00:28:13,350 --> 00:28:11,679
targets

763
00:28:17,190 --> 00:28:13,360
and

764
00:28:18,710 --> 00:28:17,200
planet we can better characterize them

765
00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:18,720
and understand their

766
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:20,480
potential for

767
00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:22,000
hosting life

768
00:28:27,190 --> 00:28:23,200
i think

769
00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:27,200
extend the question from water to also

770
00:28:31,029 --> 00:28:29,600
other biocritical elements

771
00:28:33,029 --> 00:28:31,039
and because the processes are very

772
00:28:34,549 --> 00:28:33,039
complex and

773
00:28:37,269 --> 00:28:34,559
some of them are stochastic that can

774
00:28:38,389 --> 00:28:37,279
deliver volatiles and organics it's

775
00:28:40,789 --> 00:28:38,399
important to

776
00:28:43,029 --> 00:28:40,799
study trends and recognize

777
00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:43,039
the combination of these processes

778
00:28:55,909 --> 00:28:44,480
that needs to be

779
00:28:55,919 --> 00:28:59,590
thank you

780
00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:01,990
i understand that uh george cody may

781
00:29:05,830 --> 00:29:04,240
also have an opinion on some of these

782
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:05,840
george can i ask you

783
00:29:17,909 --> 00:29:08,159
if you could uh give us your thoughts on

784
00:29:17,919 --> 00:29:34,149
foreign

785
00:29:38,070 --> 00:29:35,590
george

786
00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:38,080
isn't there what well i would uh i'd

787
00:29:46,070 --> 00:29:39,520
also draw

788
00:29:49,750 --> 00:29:47,590
yes hello

789
00:29:51,990 --> 00:29:49,760
can you hear me hello

790
00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:52,000
yes we can

791
00:29:56,789 --> 00:29:54,000
yes hi i'm tim zweer from purdue

792
00:30:00,070 --> 00:29:56,799
university and uh i'm a chemist physical

793
00:30:02,389 --> 00:30:00,080
chemist uh here at purdue and uh so i've

794
00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:02,399
been thinking particularly about this

795
00:30:06,149 --> 00:30:04,880
second question here about the organic

796
00:30:08,870 --> 00:30:06,159
molecules

797
00:30:11,029 --> 00:30:08,880
and how they can be produced and

798
00:30:12,230 --> 00:30:11,039
it seems to me um

799
00:30:15,430 --> 00:30:12,240
that

800
00:30:18,630 --> 00:30:15,440
there may be a need for some new types

801
00:30:20,549 --> 00:30:18,640
of laboratory based experiments um

802
00:30:22,149 --> 00:30:20,559
i think this is one of the regions in

803
00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:22,159
which actual laboratory-based

804
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:26,080
experiments could be particularly useful

805
00:30:30,870 --> 00:30:28,080
because you know of course chemists have

806
00:30:34,549 --> 00:30:30,880
built up over time an extraordinarily

807
00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:34,559
sophisticated set of techniques for

808
00:30:39,269 --> 00:30:36,960
exciting molecules rating irradiating

809
00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:39,279
them in various ways and then following

810
00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:41,120
reaction pathways

811
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:43,120
to specific products

812
00:30:46,950 --> 00:30:44,720
when when i think about some of the work

813
00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:46,960
that's that's been done over the years

814
00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:48,720
of course much of it takes a quite

815
00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:51,679
different tactic where

816
00:30:57,510 --> 00:30:54,880
you take a a pretty generic reaction

817
00:30:59,190 --> 00:30:57,520
mixture and a radiate irradiated over

818
00:31:02,070 --> 00:30:59,200
long period of time

819
00:31:05,430 --> 00:31:02,080
you know either with uv or vuv radiation

820
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:05,440
or a discharge or whatever it might be

821
00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:06,640
and then

822
00:31:10,950 --> 00:31:08,799
after the fact when the end products are

823
00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:10,960
formed in a film or some sort of thing

824
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:13,360
you try to characterize the the final

825
00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:14,799
end products

826
00:31:19,590 --> 00:31:17,120
but as a chemist you know i would be

827
00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:19,600
very interested in asking specific

828
00:31:24,149 --> 00:31:21,840
questions about particular types of

829
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:24,159
organic functional groups that are known

830
00:31:28,710 --> 00:31:26,880
to be present in space and pervasive say

831
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:28,720
for instance the nitrils or something

832
00:31:34,389 --> 00:31:30,240
like that

833
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:34,399
and then trying to engage in specific uh

834
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:36,720
photochemical or radiation

835
00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:39,600
uh chemistry that you could follow in

836
00:31:44,470 --> 00:31:42,320
time and specifically detect the

837
00:31:47,110 --> 00:31:44,480
products that are being formed to try to

838
00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:47,120
actually build up mechanisms then that

839
00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:49,440
that could be hopefully

840
00:31:53,909 --> 00:31:51,440
general enough to be

841
00:32:01,590 --> 00:31:53,919
applicable in in different circumstances

842
00:32:06,630 --> 00:32:04,070
stein sean do you have a response to

843
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,029
um

844
00:32:13,190 --> 00:32:10,789
yeah i think for participants who might

845
00:32:16,389 --> 00:32:13,200
want to respond to that

846
00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:16,399
you know who you are you got one time

847
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:18,880
while we wait for those hands to go up

848
00:32:26,149 --> 00:32:20,559
i wonder if

849
00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:27,029
let me

850
00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:32,080
again for the for all attendees here

851
00:32:35,509 --> 00:32:33,760
we're uh we're talking about planetary

852
00:32:37,430 --> 00:32:35,519
conditions for life and we're we're

853
00:32:39,990 --> 00:32:37,440
wondering amongst ourselves here what

854
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:40,000
things should be on this astrobiology

855
00:32:44,950 --> 00:32:42,720
road what should nasa be funding where

856
00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:44,960
if they have a huge pot of money where

857
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:46,960
should that money be focused

858
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:48,880
and we're trying to

859
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:51,600
ascertain from from the community

860
00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:53,039
what might be the best things to be

861
00:32:58,470 --> 00:32:56,080
having on that roadmap so

862
00:33:00,149 --> 00:32:58,480
these questions here are designed

863
00:33:01,110 --> 00:33:00,159
to prompt

864
00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:01,120
thoughts

865
00:33:05,830 --> 00:33:04,799
uh you can agree or disagree in any way

866
00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:05,840
you like

867
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:07,840
but all your thoughts here will be much

868
00:33:12,549 --> 00:33:09,360
appreciated

869
00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:12,559
so um raise hands throw in your your

870
00:33:15,909 --> 00:33:14,960
thoughts um and we can sort of discuss

871
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:15,919
those

872
00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:17,760
further

873
00:33:21,590 --> 00:33:19,440
i think that david has raised his hand

874
00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:21,600
oh sorry stein carry on

875
00:33:25,430 --> 00:33:23,840
the david has andre

876
00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:25,440
thank you very much indeed david i see

877
00:33:33,509 --> 00:33:30,310
okay uh two two comments about

878
00:33:35,430 --> 00:33:33,519
habitability one which we got into at

879
00:33:38,149 --> 00:33:35,440
the last time with this road map

880
00:33:40,789 --> 00:33:38,159
was you have a habitable planet that can

881
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:40,799
support life as we know it and then you

882
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:42,720
have the kind of planet that's habitable

883
00:33:47,909 --> 00:33:45,600
that could foster the origin of life and

884
00:33:49,190 --> 00:33:47,919
are those two necessarily the same in

885
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:49,200
other words could you say that the

886
00:33:53,110 --> 00:33:51,600
habitability of our current planet would

887
00:33:55,190 --> 00:33:53,120
have been the type of

888
00:33:56,950 --> 00:33:55,200
environment where life could have begun

889
00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:56,960
and it's not clear to me at all that

890
00:34:01,669 --> 00:33:59,760
that's the same kind of environment so

891
00:34:04,389 --> 00:34:01,679
and especially if you believe in plants

892
00:34:06,310 --> 00:34:04,399
panspermia between planets in one system

893
00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:06,320
uh you know this is this becomes sort of

894
00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:07,919
an interesting question so that's one

895
00:34:11,829 --> 00:34:09,200
little distinction i thought you might

896
00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:11,839
want to consider in your deliberations

897
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:14,480
um and the other thing which for mars is

898
00:34:17,990 --> 00:34:16,320
a big issue is how long did these

899
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:18,000
conditions persist

900
00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:19,760
it's much easier to say that there was

901
00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:21,839
water at some time or that all the magic

902
00:34:25,829 --> 00:34:24,240
components that you need uh were present

903
00:34:28,389 --> 00:34:25,839
at a time but how long do they have to

904
00:34:30,389 --> 00:34:28,399
be present uh to really make it truly

905
00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:30,399
habitable and especially for life to

906
00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:33,200
begin so that's to me a key key question

907
00:34:37,669 --> 00:34:35,760
how can we quantify stability of the

908
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:37,679
environment and persistence

909
00:34:41,669 --> 00:34:40,000
that's it

910
00:34:43,750 --> 00:34:41,679
thank you very much dude i think michael

911
00:34:45,829 --> 00:34:43,760
do you have a response to that i have a

912
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:45,839
comment um we've been talking a little

913
00:34:49,030 --> 00:34:48,000
bit about habitability and origin of

914
00:34:51,510 --> 00:34:49,040
life

915
00:34:55,349 --> 00:34:51,520
and mars and i i think that's really

916
00:34:57,430 --> 00:34:55,359
gotten us off track pretty far away from

917
00:34:59,750 --> 00:34:57,440
what i wanted us or thought we would be

918
00:35:02,150 --> 00:34:59,760
talking about which are things like

919
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:02,160
before you have a planet uh how do you

920
00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:04,560
make it how once you've got a planet or

921
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:06,000
planetary system

922
00:35:10,710 --> 00:35:08,480
what makes planets habitable in that

923
00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:10,720
system so for example you know we have

924
00:35:16,230 --> 00:35:14,160
jupiter and jupiter does two things it

925
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:16,240
deflects away some material from coming

926
00:35:19,270 --> 00:35:17,680
into the inner solar system but it also

927
00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:19,280
directs some material into the inner

928
00:35:24,710 --> 00:35:22,240
solar system and that that outer solar

929
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:24,720
system structure of having a big giant

930
00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:27,119
jupiter sitting there may be important

931
00:35:32,790 --> 00:35:28,960
for the habitability of the inner

932
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:34,310
i also thought we'd be talking more

933
00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:36,560
about how organic molecules get made

934
00:35:40,870 --> 00:35:38,160
where they get made now

935
00:35:43,349 --> 00:35:40,880
in space do they get made on dust grains

936
00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:43,359
do they get made in ices

937
00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:45,280
how do they get delivered to the earth

938
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:47,200
too once they've been made

939
00:35:50,950 --> 00:35:48,720
so um

940
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:50,960
those are the kind and that's built into

941
00:35:55,349 --> 00:35:53,440
these questions and i i think i would

942
00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:55,359
like to see more conversations

943
00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:56,640
particularly

944
00:36:01,750 --> 00:35:59,280
you know oral conversation you can hear

945
00:36:03,670 --> 00:36:01,760
not just typed in the chat window about

946
00:36:07,109 --> 00:36:03,680
these topics and less about mars and

947
00:36:08,710 --> 00:36:07,119
habitability we have an entire uh

948
00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:08,720
kickoff webinar

949
00:36:14,069 --> 00:36:11,440
last week on astrobiology for solar

950
00:36:16,950 --> 00:36:14,079
systems exploration that touched on

951
00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:16,960
those areas and and um i

952
00:36:21,510 --> 00:36:19,280
i think post questions comments on that

953
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:21,520
should go to that area on the website

954
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:24,400
astrobiologyfuture.org

955
00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:30,790
thank you michael and i see that uh

956
00:36:38,550 --> 00:36:36,710
yeah just to follow up on michael's

957
00:36:41,109 --> 00:36:38,560
point that uh one of the interesting

958
00:36:42,550 --> 00:36:41,119
questions i think within the plant

959
00:36:46,310 --> 00:36:42,560
formation

960
00:36:48,950 --> 00:36:46,320
topic is how do stellar mass and binary

961
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:48,960
to influence the initial volatile and

962
00:36:51,670 --> 00:36:49,920
organic

963
00:36:52,790 --> 00:36:51,680
budget of plants that form in certain

964
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:52,800
systems

965
00:36:56,710 --> 00:36:54,720
we know that ant wars and m dwarf

966
00:36:58,950 --> 00:36:56,720
planets can be very important targets in

967
00:37:00,950 --> 00:36:58,960
the near future nasa missions but it's

968
00:37:03,109 --> 00:37:00,960
really unclear how

969
00:37:06,230 --> 00:37:03,119
this chemistry and the planets

970
00:37:09,109 --> 00:37:06,240
volatile and organic inventory change

971
00:37:11,349 --> 00:37:09,119
with the stellar mass

972
00:37:12,790 --> 00:37:11,359
so i think that should be part of the

973
00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:12,800
road map and one of the questions we

974
00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:21,109
right so thank you daniel stein

975
00:37:25,190 --> 00:37:22,160
joan do you want to comment at this

976
00:37:30,470 --> 00:37:27,750
um yeah let me comment on this

977
00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:30,480
so so you make some good points i mean

978
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:33,040
in terms of planet formation it's being

979
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:34,640
appreciated more and more that there are

980
00:37:37,910 --> 00:37:37,200
a lot of steps to get to

981
00:37:42,870 --> 00:37:37,920
a

982
00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:42,880
some little dust screens you got to form

983
00:37:46,790 --> 00:37:44,800
your planetesimals

984
00:37:48,150 --> 00:37:46,800
you got to make those into bigger things

985
00:37:49,190 --> 00:37:48,160
that are maybe the size of the moon or

986
00:37:50,790 --> 00:37:49,200
mars

987
00:37:53,030 --> 00:37:50,800
those are still you know where they're

988
00:37:55,349 --> 00:37:53,040
still early on and there's a gas disk

989
00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:55,359
around they can migrate around due to

990
00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:57,520
the presence of the gas disk

991
00:38:01,990 --> 00:38:00,000
and the gas goes away

992
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:02,000
uh and then you have this kind of final

993
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:04,160
sweep up phase where you form uh you

994
00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:06,000
know kind of last formation phase where

995
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:08,400
you have giant impacts and form planets

996
00:38:11,910 --> 00:38:10,400
that are really kind of we think look

997
00:38:12,790 --> 00:38:11,920
sort of like earth well at least in our

998
00:38:13,589 --> 00:38:12,800
case

999
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:13,599
and

1000
00:38:17,510 --> 00:38:15,599
if you want to form a planet like earth

1001
00:38:19,430 --> 00:38:17,520
or a planet that could be habitable and

1002
00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:19,440
that's the end point

1003
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:21,680
you know how many ways are there to make

1004
00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:24,079
it through the chain and end up there

1005
00:38:28,390 --> 00:38:26,320
and and that's kind of a broad view of

1006
00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:28,400
you know how planet formation connects

1007
00:38:33,109 --> 00:38:30,720
to astrobiology because we don't know if

1008
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:33,119
you need to follow a very specific path

1009
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:34,560
or whether you could almost follow

1010
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:36,240
almost any path and still get you know

1011
00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:37,920
within this kind of window of a

1012
00:38:41,750 --> 00:38:39,520
habitable plan

1013
00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:41,760
and uh and there's all sorts of

1014
00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:43,440
parameters in there and daniel mentioned

1015
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:45,680
many of them there like uh the the

1016
00:38:49,030 --> 00:38:48,000
properties of the of the protoplanetary

1017
00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:49,040
disk

1018
00:38:52,790 --> 00:38:51,520
the presence of binaries the composition

1019
00:38:54,870 --> 00:38:52,800
of the disk

1020
00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:54,880
uh how fast it evolves these kind of

1021
00:39:00,310 --> 00:38:55,920
questions

1022
00:39:01,670 --> 00:39:00,320
each one is being looked at individually

1023
00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:01,680
and some are not even being looked at

1024
00:39:07,190 --> 00:39:04,480
yet and connecting the dots between them

1025
00:39:09,510 --> 00:39:07,200
with a specific endpoint i think is is

1026
00:39:13,990 --> 00:39:09,520
you know kind of a an interesting way to

1027
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:15,030
so to

1028
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:16,800
continue that theme

1029
00:39:20,230 --> 00:39:17,680
um

1030
00:39:22,069 --> 00:39:20,240
there are two issues here one is knowing

1031
00:39:23,990 --> 00:39:22,079
the microphysics of each step and i

1032
00:39:25,990 --> 00:39:24,000
think we're a long way

1033
00:39:27,750 --> 00:39:26,000
along there and that we

1034
00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:27,760
think we understand a lot of the physics

1035
00:39:31,270 --> 00:39:29,040
involved although there may be a couple

1036
00:39:33,190 --> 00:39:31,280
places where a little

1037
00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:33,200
there's still some physical processes

1038
00:39:37,430 --> 00:39:35,440
where it's not clear which are dominant

1039
00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:37,440
and which are important and which are

1040
00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:39,040
uh irrelevant and can be left out of the

1041
00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:41,680
simulations but then even once we know

1042
00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:42,480
that

1043
00:39:46,630 --> 00:39:44,240
we're now talking about a very large

1044
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:46,640
parameter space and we've kind of

1045
00:39:49,990 --> 00:39:48,480
sampled it sparsely

1046
00:39:51,990 --> 00:39:50,000
we initially were totally focused on

1047
00:39:53,910 --> 00:39:52,000
solar system like

1048
00:39:55,349 --> 00:39:53,920
systems because that's what we had and

1049
00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:55,359
then as we discovered different kinds of

1050
00:39:58,630 --> 00:39:57,280
systems we sort of tried a few things

1051
00:40:00,710 --> 00:39:58,640
here and there

1052
00:40:02,310 --> 00:40:00,720
and there's been some broad surveys

1053
00:40:03,750 --> 00:40:02,320
trying to do a sort of core sampling of

1054
00:40:05,349 --> 00:40:03,760
the parameter space

1055
00:40:06,790 --> 00:40:05,359
but we really haven't explored all these

1056
00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:06,800
different channels

1057
00:40:12,230 --> 00:40:08,160
and and that's

1058
00:40:15,430 --> 00:40:12,240
it's perfectly doable uh it requires

1059
00:40:16,950 --> 00:40:15,440
a fairly modest by by

1060
00:40:20,230 --> 00:40:16,960
modern research standards effort in

1061
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:20,240
terms of and and i think computationally

1062
00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:21,760
it's we're at the point where it is

1063
00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:22,880
doable

1064
00:40:27,270 --> 00:40:25,680
um but there's not been a coherent

1065
00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:27,280
effort to do that

1066
00:40:30,470 --> 00:40:29,280
rather there have been

1067
00:40:31,829 --> 00:40:30,480
people here and they're doing it for a

1068
00:40:34,069 --> 00:40:31,839
bit and

1069
00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:34,079
making some progress and

1070
00:40:37,190 --> 00:40:35,680
it's just getting there

1071
00:40:38,870 --> 00:40:37,200
the

1072
00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:38,880
i mean a lot of different paths that

1073
00:40:43,510 --> 00:40:40,960
people have been working on this for

1074
00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:43,520
decades in some cases it's all coming

1075
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:47,040
together very nicely but it's

1076
00:40:49,910 --> 00:40:48,480
even at the level of just looking at

1077
00:40:51,829 --> 00:40:49,920
something like the kepler sampler or the

1078
00:40:53,829 --> 00:40:51,839
rv sampler systems which is not complete

1079
00:40:56,069 --> 00:40:53,839
but they're about fire systems we have

1080
00:40:56,870 --> 00:40:56,079
not explored even what we already know

1081
00:40:58,390 --> 00:40:56,880
now

1082
00:41:00,150 --> 00:40:58,400
we have not fully

1083
00:41:02,390 --> 00:41:00,160
probed with implications of various

1084
00:41:03,270 --> 00:41:02,400
different configurations and

1085
00:41:07,589 --> 00:41:03,280
and

1086
00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:07,599
picked up

1087
00:41:11,750 --> 00:41:09,680
what that implies for for delivery of

1088
00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:11,760
organics or or the conditions on the

1089
00:41:16,069 --> 00:41:14,400
planet we haven't been

1090
00:41:17,829 --> 00:41:16,079
in the disorder system we haven't really

1091
00:41:20,550 --> 00:41:17,839
talked about atmospheres yet and what

1092
00:41:21,990 --> 00:41:20,560
they imply for habitability uh we don't

1093
00:41:23,910 --> 00:41:22,000
know yet what the full range of

1094
00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:23,920
planetary radii are that could sustain

1095
00:41:26,950 --> 00:41:25,440
habitability

1096
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:26,960
um

1097
00:41:29,910 --> 00:41:29,040
so but a lot of these are doable and and

1098
00:41:31,829 --> 00:41:29,920
i think

1099
00:41:34,470 --> 00:41:31,839
we can do them uh what fraction of the

1100
00:41:39,750 --> 00:41:34,480
resources should be allocated to that is

1101
00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:40,630
david

1102
00:41:47,270 --> 00:41:45,599
building on what science has said

1103
00:41:48,950 --> 00:41:47,280
well yeah now that mike has slapped me

1104
00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:48,960
about the head and told me what this

1105
00:41:52,630 --> 00:41:51,200
telecon is really supposed to be about

1106
00:41:53,990 --> 00:41:52,640
let me make something which i think is

1107
00:41:56,230 --> 00:41:54,000
relevant

1108
00:41:57,670 --> 00:41:56,240
and that is that uh you know in terms of

1109
00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:57,680
volatiles being incorporated into

1110
00:42:00,630 --> 00:41:59,119
planetesimals i've gotten this

1111
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:00,640
impression that you get up to a certain

1112
00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:02,400
size of planetesimal

1113
00:42:07,190 --> 00:42:05,040
and uh and that these things can really

1114
00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:07,200
vary in their volatile content and then

1115
00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:09,040
after that you get into this big cosmic

1116
00:42:12,950 --> 00:42:11,280
billiard game where these planets will

1117
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:12,960
collide and that you notice need to go

1118
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:14,800
through that phase really to get up to

1119
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:16,400
an sized object

1120
00:42:21,510 --> 00:42:19,040
and given the tremendous variety of

1121
00:42:23,030 --> 00:42:21,520
volatile contents in these planetesimals

1122
00:42:25,670 --> 00:42:23,040
it really is a seems like it's a

1123
00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:25,680
stochastic process and so at some point

1124
00:42:29,589 --> 00:42:27,839
you just have to go and look and so i

1125
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:29,599
think maybe one of the key things to

1126
00:42:33,349 --> 00:42:32,000
consider in this road map is what what

1127
00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:33,359
is that that we can actually do

1128
00:42:37,990 --> 00:42:35,359
experimentally or with models versus

1129
00:42:40,230 --> 00:42:38,000
what the advocacy we would make for for

1130
00:42:42,069 --> 00:42:40,240
astronomical observation missions to

1131
00:42:43,829 --> 00:42:42,079
look at these disks you know in other

1132
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:43,839
words how how could this roadmap guide

1133
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:45,920
the balance between astronomical

1134
00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:48,480
observational approaches versus the lab

1135
00:42:52,630 --> 00:42:50,640
or modeling on the other side given that

1136
00:42:54,550 --> 00:42:52,640
there's a stochastic element in there

1137
00:42:55,990 --> 00:42:54,560
and this stochastic aspect was one of

1138
00:42:57,990 --> 00:42:56,000
the major arguments for the kepler

1139
00:42:59,990 --> 00:42:58,000
mission that you know there's there's

1140
00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:00,000
this element in planet formation we just

1141
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:10,390
that's it

1142
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:11,430
so

1143
00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:13,200
could i comment on this

1144
00:43:16,150 --> 00:43:14,720
yes um

1145
00:43:17,990 --> 00:43:16,160
uh

1146
00:43:20,069 --> 00:43:18,000
this is it's a good point so so why not

1147
00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:20,079
just go look and see what uh

1148
00:43:24,870 --> 00:43:22,480
these planets are actually made of

1149
00:43:27,349 --> 00:43:24,880
the the trick is with kepler uh you know

1150
00:43:28,870 --> 00:43:27,359
you get a pretty good radius of a planet

1151
00:43:30,630 --> 00:43:28,880
and if you're lucky if you're really

1152
00:43:32,150 --> 00:43:30,640
really lucky then you can get some sort

1153
00:43:33,990 --> 00:43:32,160
of mass estimate

1154
00:43:36,870 --> 00:43:34,000
but there's no way you can

1155
00:43:39,349 --> 00:43:36,880
really constrain the bulk composition

1156
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:39,359
at the moment to the degree that we need

1157
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:40,560
to

1158
00:43:44,390 --> 00:43:42,800
or that we're talking about in terms of

1159
00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:44,400
these planet formation models for

1160
00:43:48,710 --> 00:43:46,480
example if you took the earth

1161
00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:48,720
you know the exact earth replica

1162
00:43:52,470 --> 00:43:50,640
and then you gave it either

1163
00:43:54,870 --> 00:43:52,480
zero water or a hundred times the

1164
00:43:57,349 --> 00:43:54,880
earth's current water content its radius

1165
00:43:59,430 --> 00:43:57,359
changes a very small amount

1166
00:44:00,470 --> 00:43:59,440
you know below less than kepler could

1167
00:44:02,470 --> 00:44:00,480
detect

1168
00:44:04,870 --> 00:44:02,480
and so

1169
00:44:06,950 --> 00:44:04,880
so kepler can't really feed back in

1170
00:44:08,390 --> 00:44:06,960
that directly unfortunately it would be

1171
00:44:09,750 --> 00:44:08,400
great if it could

1172
00:44:11,430 --> 00:44:09,760
uh and

1173
00:44:13,510 --> 00:44:11,440
though you know i think it will be able

1174
00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:13,520
to in certain situations

1175
00:44:17,670 --> 00:44:15,520
uh but

1176
00:44:20,150 --> 00:44:17,680
it doesn't give as many answers as we

1177
00:44:21,829 --> 00:44:20,160
would like right now

1178
00:44:23,349 --> 00:44:21,839
can i make a comment this is francis

1179
00:44:27,270 --> 00:44:23,359
mccoven

1180
00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:29,430
please do who's that speaking

1181
00:44:33,030 --> 00:44:31,280
uh francis mccombin

1182
00:44:35,190 --> 00:44:33,040
sorry i'm a bit late

1183
00:44:38,390 --> 00:44:35,200
ah francis hello

1184
00:44:40,150 --> 00:44:38,400
welcome um yes please please uh please

1185
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:40,160
make a comment yeah

1186
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:42,240
okay so um

1187
00:44:44,550 --> 00:44:43,760
one way that we might actually be able

1188
00:44:47,190 --> 00:44:44,560
to get

1189
00:44:48,630 --> 00:44:47,200
at the volatiles uh from a distance

1190
00:44:51,270 --> 00:44:48,640
is looking at the

1191
00:44:52,550 --> 00:44:51,280
walk planetary uncompressed density

1192
00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:52,560
um

1193
00:44:55,589 --> 00:44:53,920
because you know things like mercury

1194
00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:55,599
that have very high density high metal

1195
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:56,640
content

1196
00:45:01,109 --> 00:44:58,160
even if they have a lot of hydrogen that

1197
00:45:02,470 --> 00:45:01,119
hydrogen wouldn't uh make water

1198
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:02,480
so we're sort of narrowing in on a

1199
00:45:06,150 --> 00:45:04,640
certain core size that correlates with

1200
00:45:08,630 --> 00:45:06,160
oxygen fugacity

1201
00:45:10,230 --> 00:45:08,640
that allows for the stability of water

1202
00:45:12,150 --> 00:45:10,240
the at least the prediction of the

1203
00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:12,160
stability of water versus

1204
00:45:23,990 --> 00:45:15,040
something like h2 that might not be as

1205
00:45:27,109 --> 00:45:25,750
so there may be creative ways about

1206
00:45:27,910 --> 00:45:27,119
going about

1207
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:27,920
um

1208
00:45:35,910 --> 00:45:29,040
you know

1209
00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:37,349
thank you very much

1210
00:45:41,430 --> 00:45:39,280
francis how how much of the conversation

1211
00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:41,440
have you been able to hear so far

1212
00:45:45,589 --> 00:45:43,680
about the last 10 minutes

1213
00:45:46,390 --> 00:45:45,599
ah okay

1214
00:45:49,349 --> 00:45:46,400
um

1215
00:45:51,589 --> 00:45:49,359
uh i'm gonna i'm gonna turn to uh daniel

1216
00:45:52,309 --> 00:45:51,599
and david you have some comments to make

1217
00:45:54,309 --> 00:45:52,319
but

1218
00:45:56,150 --> 00:45:54,319
if you uh if you would like to have a

1219
00:45:59,109 --> 00:45:56,160
think about some of the questions that

1220
00:46:00,470 --> 00:45:59,119
we put on the uh on the um on the

1221
00:46:02,950 --> 00:46:00,480
opening slide

1222
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:02,960
i'll turn to you in a few moments to

1223
00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:04,720
give us your thoughts on why these are

1224
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:07,040
very important questions and why you

1225
00:46:11,270 --> 00:46:09,520
with stein and sean decided that nasa

1226
00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:11,280
should consider these these questions so

1227
00:46:13,829 --> 00:46:12,640
i'll come back to just a moment but let

1228
00:46:16,550 --> 00:46:13,839
me go first

1229
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:16,560
daniel um who's got his hand up daniel

1230
00:46:21,670 --> 00:46:18,880
did you just want to build on that

1231
00:46:22,950 --> 00:46:21,680
thanks yeah i just wanted to

1232
00:46:25,670 --> 00:46:22,960
highlight some of the points that were

1233
00:46:27,510 --> 00:46:25,680
raised which like i agree i wanted to

1234
00:46:36,710 --> 00:46:27,520
add that not only we have samples from

1235
00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:38,390
so i'm just gonna mute that telecon real

1236
00:46:42,550 --> 00:46:39,599
quick it sounds like there's a fire

1237
00:46:44,309 --> 00:46:42,560
alarm in someone's building

1238
00:46:46,230 --> 00:46:44,319
that's a good point to bring up we'll

1239
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:46,240
record this talk so you can

1240
00:46:50,550 --> 00:46:48,480
escape the fire and watch it later if

1241
00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:50,560
you need to

1242
00:46:53,589 --> 00:46:52,800
um i'll try to unmute it if it's beeping

1243
00:46:55,430 --> 00:46:53,599
i'll

1244
00:46:58,630 --> 00:46:55,440
mute it again and send it back to you

1245
00:47:02,870 --> 00:47:00,150
so if we've um

1246
00:47:04,230 --> 00:47:02,880
if we have do we still have daniel

1247
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:04,240
yeah

1248
00:47:13,270 --> 00:47:11,520
becoming functional now we are seeing

1249
00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:13,280
exciting results and that gives us an

1250
00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:15,040
opportunity to study protoplanetary

1251
00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:17,520
disks banter systems in the making

1252
00:47:23,349 --> 00:47:21,280
and uh there was observations of um

1253
00:47:25,349 --> 00:47:23,359
planetary systems or

1254
00:47:27,510 --> 00:47:25,359
around white dwarfs which gives us

1255
00:47:29,990 --> 00:47:27,520
another interesting perspective into the

1256
00:47:32,550 --> 00:47:30,000
composition of planetary systems so i

1257
00:47:34,470 --> 00:47:32,560
think not only the exoplanets can be

1258
00:47:36,150 --> 00:47:34,480
directly studied but also forming

1259
00:47:37,190 --> 00:47:36,160
planetary systems

1260
00:47:39,430 --> 00:47:37,200
and

1261
00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:39,440
which i think is an important point

1262
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:43,680
the other issues or opportunity here

1263
00:47:45,589 --> 00:47:44,720
um

1264
00:47:49,829 --> 00:47:45,599
is

1265
00:47:50,790 --> 00:47:49,839
think it's important to focus on trends

1266
00:47:52,790 --> 00:47:50,800
because

1267
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:52,800
we do expect trends with for example

1268
00:47:56,390 --> 00:47:55,200
stellar mass uv radiation etc in the

1269
00:47:58,870 --> 00:47:56,400
chemistry

1270
00:48:01,589 --> 00:47:58,880
and even if we probably won't be able to

1271
00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:01,599
determine and predict compositions for

1272
00:48:05,910 --> 00:48:03,680
individual plants we should be able to

1273
00:48:07,670 --> 00:48:05,920
come up with a statistical description

1274
00:48:09,750 --> 00:48:07,680
for volatile budgets and that's

1275
00:48:11,910 --> 00:48:09,760
something that i think with the emerging

1276
00:48:13,270 --> 00:48:11,920
new data should be possible in the next

1277
00:48:15,030 --> 00:48:13,280
five to ten

1278
00:48:16,790 --> 00:48:15,040
years

1279
00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:16,800
thanks

1280
00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:18,160
thank you daniel

1281
00:48:21,750 --> 00:48:20,160
david you have you have your hand raised

1282
00:48:23,670 --> 00:48:21,760
as well

1283
00:48:25,270 --> 00:48:23,680
just a quick comment in response to what

1284
00:48:27,349 --> 00:48:25,280
sean had mentioned and that is i wasn't

1285
00:48:29,510 --> 00:48:27,359
so much focusing on what we should do

1286
00:48:31,349 --> 00:48:29,520
with the kepler data but what this group

1287
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:31,359
could do to advocate for a future

1288
00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:33,119
mission and i think that the comments

1289
00:48:36,470 --> 00:48:34,720
you just heard before mine that got at

1290
00:48:38,390 --> 00:48:36,480
that is you know what can we do to

1291
00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:38,400
influence the next kind of mission that

1292
00:48:41,990 --> 00:48:40,480
would get into the types of observations

1293
00:48:45,910 --> 00:48:42,000
of early disks that would be most

1294
00:48:50,790 --> 00:48:46,829
thank

1295
00:48:53,670 --> 00:48:50,800
you can i can i um come back to francis

1296
00:48:56,150 --> 00:48:53,680
then please francis um thank you for

1297
00:48:58,870 --> 00:48:56,160
joining us uh as well

1298
00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:58,880
still in the airport somewhere um

1299
00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:00,640
we started the conversation going

1300
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:02,640
through these opening panel questions

1301
00:49:07,670 --> 00:49:05,760
and stein and sean and the participants

1302
00:49:10,549 --> 00:49:07,680
were exploring as to why these are

1303
00:49:12,309 --> 00:49:10,559
important questions for nasa to explore

1304
00:49:14,950 --> 00:49:12,319
i understand you're you're very much

1305
00:49:16,630 --> 00:49:14,960
into the organic side of things we'd be

1306
00:49:18,630 --> 00:49:16,640
very interested to hear your comments on

1307
00:49:19,510 --> 00:49:18,640
why these are important questions in the

1308
00:49:21,750 --> 00:49:19,520
last

1309
00:49:24,549 --> 00:49:21,760
five minutes or so

1310
00:49:28,470 --> 00:49:26,069
so i guess i'll start with the first

1311
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:28,480
question what factors determine the

1312
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:30,079
amount of water delivered to planets in

1313
00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:31,440
the stars habitable zone and the

1314
00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:33,440
availability of that water

1315
00:49:37,829 --> 00:49:35,760
for participation in chemical reactions

1316
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:37,839
um

1317
00:49:42,950 --> 00:49:40,079
so there's abundant hydrogen

1318
00:49:45,430 --> 00:49:42,960
in uh most planetary systems the most

1319
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:45,440
fun element in all stars really

1320
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:46,640
um

1321
00:49:50,230 --> 00:49:48,640
but hydrogen alone isn't what we need

1322
00:49:55,109 --> 00:49:50,240
for for life in a lot of organic

1323
00:49:57,670 --> 00:49:55,990
so

1324
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:57,680
understanding

1325
00:50:01,589 --> 00:49:59,839
the availability of that water and how

1326
00:50:03,589 --> 00:50:01,599
it's able to participate

1327
00:50:04,790 --> 00:50:03,599
uh to make organic molecules is

1328
00:50:06,069 --> 00:50:04,800
fundamentally important for

1329
00:50:07,589 --> 00:50:06,079
understanding

1330
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:07,599
the origin of life

1331
00:50:12,150 --> 00:50:08,880
um

1332
00:50:13,670 --> 00:50:12,160
you know for example the moon uh

1333
00:50:15,750 --> 00:50:13,680
is now known to have

1334
00:50:17,190 --> 00:50:15,760
a lot more water or hydrogen than we

1335
00:50:19,510 --> 00:50:17,200
previously thought

1336
00:50:21,910 --> 00:50:19,520
but it doesn't necessarily make

1337
00:50:25,349 --> 00:50:21,920
it a higher target for

1338
00:50:39,109 --> 00:50:27,190
so

1339
00:50:42,230 --> 00:50:40,230
you

1340
00:50:43,670 --> 00:50:42,240
yeah

1341
00:50:44,870 --> 00:50:43,680
um what

1342
00:50:48,950 --> 00:50:44,880
tell me more about your what your

1343
00:50:51,510 --> 00:50:48,960
thoughts are on the organic molecules

1344
00:50:53,109 --> 00:50:51,520
well it seems that we you know obvious

1345
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:53,119
what we observe we find organic

1346
00:50:55,510 --> 00:50:54,480
molecules in

1347
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:55,520
a lot of

1348
00:50:59,990 --> 00:50:57,359
carbonaceous chondrites we're finding

1349
00:51:01,990 --> 00:51:00,000
organic molecules within

1350
00:51:04,870 --> 00:51:02,000
igneous minerals that seem to form

1351
00:51:06,710 --> 00:51:04,880
during the cooling of magmatic

1352
00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:06,720
magmatic systems on places like the

1353
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:12,710
so it seems like planets

1354
00:51:17,829 --> 00:51:16,480
uh and and early on in the solar system

1355
00:51:19,910 --> 00:51:17,839
we were able to make a lot of these

1356
00:51:23,349 --> 00:51:19,920
organic molecules but

1357
00:51:24,309 --> 00:51:23,359
most of them are fairly simple

1358
00:51:27,430 --> 00:51:24,319
um

1359
00:51:29,109 --> 00:51:27,440
and uh and they're typically around in

1360
00:51:30,630 --> 00:51:29,119
in minor concentrations i mean

1361
00:51:32,630 --> 00:51:30,640
carbonation chondrites are much higher

1362
00:51:34,309 --> 00:51:32,640
but when we find them in the context of

1363
00:51:36,390 --> 00:51:34,319
planetary bodies

1364
00:51:39,109 --> 00:51:36,400
uh their concentrations seem to be very

1365
00:51:41,510 --> 00:51:39,119
low uh however to get

1366
00:51:42,390 --> 00:51:41,520
you know what geologic processes you

1367
00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:42,400
know we need to understand the

1368
00:51:45,510 --> 00:51:44,000
geological processes they can bring

1369
00:51:47,990 --> 00:51:45,520
these molecules together and help them

1370
00:51:49,430 --> 00:51:48,000
become more complex complex

1371
00:51:51,829 --> 00:51:49,440
so that we can move towards

1372
00:51:53,829 --> 00:51:51,839
understanding you know how and where to

1373
00:51:57,990 --> 00:51:53,839
look for the origins of life

1374
00:52:02,390 --> 00:52:00,790
and i apologize from uh sounding a bit

1375
00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:02,400
out of it i just got off of the

1376
00:52:10,950 --> 00:52:07,990
well thank you for uh thank you for

1377
00:52:12,870 --> 00:52:10,960
joining us um we we are very interested

1378
00:52:15,030 --> 00:52:12,880
in your comments on this so if you if

1379
00:52:18,069 --> 00:52:15,040
you don't mind bearing with us we will

1380
00:52:19,430 --> 00:52:18,079
do i'll also invite attendees and the

1381
00:52:20,950 --> 00:52:19,440
rest of the panel to join in the

1382
00:52:22,790 --> 00:52:20,960
conversation if people want to raise

1383
00:52:23,990 --> 00:52:22,800
their hands they can comment against

1384
00:52:26,630 --> 00:52:24,000
what you're saying

1385
00:52:29,430 --> 00:52:26,640
as i just like to mention to the uh to

1386
00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:29,440
the audience to the attendees uh we're

1387
00:52:33,829 --> 00:52:31,200
coming just up towards the end of this

1388
00:52:35,670 --> 00:52:33,839
conference but as francis has joined us

1389
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:35,680
in the last few moments and he's put a

1390
00:52:39,190 --> 00:52:37,119
lot of effort into that

1391
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:39,200
it would be uh i'd be grateful if we

1392
00:52:42,470 --> 00:52:40,640
could just carry on for just a few more

1393
00:52:43,990 --> 00:52:42,480
minutes just just make sure that we've

1394
00:52:45,910 --> 00:52:44,000
covered everything that francis can

1395
00:52:47,430 --> 00:52:45,920
contribute uh

1396
00:52:50,069 --> 00:52:47,440
considering his

1397
00:52:52,309 --> 00:52:50,079
tiredness as well um if people need to

1398
00:52:54,390 --> 00:52:52,319
drop out then please do

1399
00:52:56,630 --> 00:52:54,400
just to make it very clear the

1400
00:52:59,589 --> 00:52:56,640
conversations that we are having here

1401
00:53:00,790 --> 00:52:59,599
will be uh transcribed and put up onto

1402
00:53:02,950 --> 00:53:00,800
the website

1403
00:53:04,710 --> 00:53:02,960
uh in the next few hours so the

1404
00:53:06,790 --> 00:53:04,720
conversation can continue and we

1405
00:53:09,589 --> 00:53:06,800
encourage everybody to come along to the

1406
00:53:11,990 --> 00:53:09,599
website joining the conversations

1407
00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:12,000
and help us build this

1408
00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:14,480
this road map that uh nasa are trying to

1409
00:53:18,630 --> 00:53:15,920
put together with the help of the

1410
00:53:20,230 --> 00:53:18,640
community so please stay engaged

1411
00:53:21,829 --> 00:53:20,240
now having said that i'd like to just

1412
00:53:23,829 --> 00:53:21,839
carry on just for a few more minutes if

1413
00:53:25,670 --> 00:53:23,839
you can bear with us for us to just give

1414
00:53:27,190 --> 00:53:25,680
us a little bit more of your insight and

1415
00:53:28,950 --> 00:53:27,200
i invite other people to join in the

1416
00:53:31,990 --> 00:53:28,960
conversation with you as well one of the

1417
00:53:34,309 --> 00:53:32,000
questions we didn't cover um francis was

1418
00:53:35,829 --> 00:53:34,319
the um the question right

1419
00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:35,839
is life a chemical consequence of

1420
00:53:40,710 --> 00:53:38,240
thermodynamics or did it emerge in spite

1421
00:53:42,150 --> 00:53:40,720
in spite of thermodynamics again why is

1422
00:53:44,069 --> 00:53:42,160
that an important question for nasa to

1423
00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:44,079
consider

1424
00:53:48,710 --> 00:53:45,760
um i think

1425
00:53:50,790 --> 00:53:48,720
that that question kind of ties into the

1426
00:53:52,870 --> 00:53:50,800
you know whether whether life emerges

1427
00:53:54,309 --> 00:53:52,880
from sarcastic processes or whether it's

1428
00:53:56,390 --> 00:53:54,319
an eventuality

1429
00:53:58,790 --> 00:53:56,400
so a planetary body

1430
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:58,800
uh largely is going to evolve it's a

1431
00:54:03,109 --> 00:54:00,480
very dynamic process but it's going to

1432
00:54:04,870 --> 00:54:03,119
evolve based on thermodynamic principles

1433
00:54:06,470 --> 00:54:04,880
um but every now and then you get these

1434
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:06,480
stochastic processes things like the

1435
00:54:09,990 --> 00:54:08,400
weight heavy bombardment or things that

1436
00:54:11,990 --> 00:54:10,000
really add a lot of flux to the system

1437
00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:12,000
that that throw it out of equilibrium or

1438
00:54:14,950 --> 00:54:13,200
at least the equilibrium that it was

1439
00:54:17,589 --> 00:54:14,960
heading towards

1440
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:17,599
and um you know life in general is sort

1441
00:54:21,109 --> 00:54:19,040
of a mix of equilibrium and

1442
00:54:22,230 --> 00:54:21,119
disequilibrium processes

1443
00:54:24,230 --> 00:54:22,240
uh

1444
00:54:25,829 --> 00:54:24,240
and so if if life is a chemical

1445
00:54:28,230 --> 00:54:25,839
consequence of thermodynamics then

1446
00:54:30,390 --> 00:54:28,240
perhaps we should expect to find it uh

1447
00:54:32,470 --> 00:54:30,400
everywhere if it emerges in spite of it

1448
00:54:35,190 --> 00:54:32,480
it may lead more towards you know

1449
00:54:37,270 --> 00:54:35,200
stochastic processes sort of inducing it

1450
00:54:38,870 --> 00:54:37,280
uh because of being drastically out of

1451
00:54:44,710 --> 00:54:38,880
an equilibrium that we were heading

1452
00:54:48,790 --> 00:54:46,630
what is the experiment what is the

1453
00:55:02,069 --> 00:54:48,800
research that needs to be done to answer

1454
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:04,829
i guess if we could

1455
00:55:09,190 --> 00:55:07,520
produce an experimental laugh that turns

1456
00:55:10,950 --> 00:55:09,200
non-living material into living material

1457
00:55:11,750 --> 00:55:10,960
that would really be it but

1458
00:55:14,549 --> 00:55:11,760
um

1459
00:55:16,309 --> 00:55:14,559
we haven't been able to do that yet

1460
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:16,319
uh but perhaps we

1461
00:55:19,829 --> 00:55:18,160
you know shouldn't should invest more in

1462
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:19,839
actually trying to do that and think

1463
00:55:22,230 --> 00:55:20,720
through

1464
00:55:23,750 --> 00:55:22,240
the chemical reactions that would

1465
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:23,760
actually lead to

1466
00:55:30,390 --> 00:55:28,470
if it is a therm if it is a consequence

1467
00:55:31,790 --> 00:55:30,400
of thermodynamics then we should be able

1468
00:55:35,670 --> 00:55:31,800
to reproduce it in the

1469
00:55:38,470 --> 00:55:35,680
laboratory um given the right chemical

1470
00:55:43,750 --> 00:55:41,589
david i see you have your hand raised

1471
00:55:45,910 --> 00:55:43,760
i'll try to keep it concise i i think

1472
00:55:47,990 --> 00:55:45,920
the thermodynamics plays a role because

1473
00:55:49,109 --> 00:55:48,000
the approach to thermodynamics releases

1474
00:55:50,870 --> 00:55:49,119
energy

1475
00:55:53,190 --> 00:55:50,880
gets it back to that earlier discussion

1476
00:55:54,789 --> 00:55:53,200
we had about coupling energy to these

1477
00:55:56,150 --> 00:55:54,799
processes that we think are essential

1478
00:55:58,069 --> 00:55:56,160
for life so

1479
00:56:00,069 --> 00:55:58,079
yeah it's kinetic and it's that approach

1480
00:56:02,470 --> 00:56:00,079
to thermodynamics that

1481
00:56:03,910 --> 00:56:02,480
is the landscape and so

1482
00:56:05,589 --> 00:56:03,920
experiments that incorporate that i

1483
00:56:08,710 --> 00:56:05,599
think are relevant

1484
00:56:13,430 --> 00:56:10,950
yeah

1485
00:56:15,750 --> 00:56:13,440
stein shawn do you have something to add

1486
00:56:18,789 --> 00:56:15,760
to the thermodynamics

1487
00:56:25,030 --> 00:56:21,349
i think we need to know this answer

1488
00:56:26,390 --> 00:56:25,040
um i i can see arguing either way sorry

1489
00:56:27,589 --> 00:56:26,400
sean you go ahead i see your fingers in

1490
00:56:29,510 --> 00:56:27,599
the button

1491
00:56:31,349 --> 00:56:29,520
no no i i was gonna say i think it's an

1492
00:56:33,270 --> 00:56:31,359
interesting question that that should be

1493
00:56:37,910 --> 00:56:33,280
addressed but i don't have the answer as

1494
00:56:44,630 --> 00:56:39,670
it gets back to one of these very basic

1495
00:56:50,630 --> 00:56:46,789
okay well maybe the right question but

1496
00:56:55,270 --> 00:56:52,230
thanks

1497
00:56:58,150 --> 00:56:55,280
uh unless there are any other questions

1498
00:57:00,390 --> 00:56:58,160
from uh attendees again ask you to raise

1499
00:57:04,150 --> 00:57:00,400
your hand if you'd like to say something

1500
00:57:07,190 --> 00:57:04,160
um i think it sounds like that frost

1501
00:57:09,190 --> 00:57:07,200
worn out and uh it's uh it's probably

1502
00:57:10,390 --> 00:57:09,200
time for us to start to wrap this up

1503
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:10,400
just while people are thinking about

1504
00:57:14,390 --> 00:57:12,160
whether they want to raise their hand

1505
00:57:16,630 --> 00:57:14,400
just to close up again to remind you the

1506
00:57:18,390 --> 00:57:16,640
conversation will continue on the

1507
00:57:20,470 --> 00:57:18,400
website

1508
00:57:22,470 --> 00:57:20,480
we encourage you to come there and join

1509
00:57:23,990 --> 00:57:22,480
in there'll also be a

1510
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:24,000
a youtube

1511
00:57:29,430 --> 00:57:25,760
video of this conversation so you can

1512
00:57:32,069 --> 00:57:29,440
see it in its entirety uh and also the

1513
00:57:33,589 --> 00:57:32,079
other uh themes uh and discussions that

1514
00:57:35,589 --> 00:57:33,599
have happened over the last couple of

1515
00:57:37,829 --> 00:57:35,599
weeks they are awesome again we

1516
00:57:39,030 --> 00:57:37,839
encourage you to step into those other

1517
00:57:42,470 --> 00:57:39,040
themes as well because there's quite a

1518
00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:42,480
lot of cross conversation cross cross

1519
00:57:48,789 --> 00:57:46,640
theme uh uh topics and questions so um

1520
00:57:51,750 --> 00:57:48,799
so please join in

1521
00:57:54,470 --> 00:57:51,760
i don't see any more hands writing uh

1522
00:57:57,270 --> 00:57:54,480
stein sean did you need to wind up with

1523
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:01,990
all done

1524
00:58:06,549 --> 00:58:04,630
in which case i will say thank you very

1525
00:58:07,670 --> 00:58:06,559
much to everybody for attending

1526
00:58:09,829 --> 00:58:07,680
thank you very much to the panel thank

1527
00:58:11,430 --> 00:58:09,839
you to francis for popping you

1528
00:58:13,510 --> 00:58:11,440
towards the end and giving you your your

1529
00:58:15,430 --> 00:58:13,520
points on it uh much appreciated uh

1530
00:58:17,190 --> 00:58:15,440
we'll finish it and